Namaste wrote: So are you trying to say here that that failed or succeeded in telling House's issues in this episode? For me they failed but, actually, I'm trying to see the episode the more unbiased way as possible. I know it worked for some, but it didn't for me, after two very emotional episodes, this one felt flat. Something was missing and no, I don't think it was just a Wilson's reference. Far from me to try to tell them how to write a story! But it was like they just put this slightly unrelated episode in the middle of an arc and break the flow - not the first time I felt this way. I don't want them preaching to me about what was going on. Me neither, I'm quite good about how to read metaphors and subtext. What we were discussing (in the spoiler thread) was the difference in trying to make up a point and succeeding. It was a matter of interpretation of how some chose to read a scene or not. House was staring out of the window: he was looking to the balcony? I don't know. I chose to think he was, but I can't disagree with someone who think he was just admiring the view. I can argue that he was missing Wilson, but others can just tell me that he was actually dealing very well with his absence. And I don't think either opinion would be wrong based in what was going on in the episode. One thing is to be subtle, another is to be so cryptic that a part of the audience may end up missing the point, whatever may be the point. jair wrote: having House not talking about Wilson, is any more a rationalisation than reading Cameron's behaviour in the sexcapades as a reaction to her kiss with House Exactly! And because it was a rationalization, some fans chose the interpretation that made more sense to them, and another part chose to think that the sexcapeds were an inconsistency in Cam's behaviour. None of them were wrong, but if you ask me, I do think that a little more clarity wouldn't have damaged the story and would have made wonders to the character's development.

One thing is to be subtle, another is to be so cryptic that a part of the audience may end up missing the point, whatever may be the point. Really, you're getting into a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. If Lucas or Taub or (god forbid, because I can hear the bitching already) Thirteen had said out loud that House is just projecting because of his issues with Wilson, there would be complaints about how "everyone" reads House so easily, and he's supposed to be a complicated guy that nobody gets, and the "House whisperer" rolling of the eyes. If they don't say it out loud, then there are complaints it's too vague. Myself, since they fall to the "House whisperer" side of that equation too often (for me, at least) I was glad to have the more subtle approach this time.

you're getting into a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation I know it's not an easy balance. I see your point, I really do, that's why I mentioned - though, I don't remember anymore in what thread, sorry - that they could have given us some kind of visual clues - as showing the balcony when House was looking in that direction, for instance. But I'll stop now before someone accuses me to try to tell them how to direct an episode... :wink:

Exactly! And because it was a rationalization, some fans chose the interpretation that made more sense to them, and another part chose to think that the sexcapeds were an inconsistency in Cam's behaviour. None of them were wrong, but if you ask me, I do think that a little more clarity wouldn't have damaged the story and would have made wonders to the character's development. To me, however, the fact that reading it one way follows through from previous episodes and characterisation, and fits the way the story goes from there, makes it a more likely interpretation than that there is no connection and both the kiss and the FWB is completely OOC and should be dismissed from characterisation and canon. If there's a reading that fits the events, why go with inconsistency? I think the same here. Why would they show us a lingering shot of House looking melancholically out his window in the direction of Wilson's balcony in the ep after Wilson's kicked him out of his life if we're not supposed to wonder what he's thinking about? If he's looking at the view, he doesn't like it much. Like Namaste, I'm always glad when they go with giving us a private peek at House rather than having someone Housewhisper the scene. In Lines in the Sand, I would far rather have seen House alone with his thoughts at the end than have Cameron anvil her thoughts about why House needed the carpet. We already had enough to make a pretty good guess that there was more going on than a power play. The staring at the blood stain was a great clue.

Just to say that I honestly did not connect House staring out of the window with him thinking about Wilson, when I saw the ep. It wasn't until I came here afterwards and saw it suggested that I thought, really??? And anyone who knows anything about me will know I can usually spot House/Wilson undercurrents a mile off in situations TPTB almost certainly never thought of... so either it was too subtle, or I'm losing my touch. :shock: :(

Forgive my popping in here. Namaste said he tells him not to say anything, to keep quiet and hold onto the good thing that he's got. At that moment, it all became internalized and wasn't about the distraction of playing with Taub, but rather a realization of the mirror image of himself having heard Wilson tear into him and announce that they were never friends. Having just gone through that emotional turmoil recently, he's now placing himself in Taub's (Or Rachel's) shoes. He's suddenly giving Taub actual advice, rather than just enjoying the show, as it were. OTOH, House's change of heart came as a direct result of Lucas reminding him that Taub left his last job rather than expose his wife to his affairs. He asks House whether he thinks Taub would work harder for House or not be working with him at all. I'm all for House internalizing his feelings, putting himself in others' shoes (quietly), but I don't think that was (all) that was happening here. So maybe I'm wrong (it's been known to happen).

I think the scene worked on both levels. He definitely responded to the PI's question about whether Taub would continue to work for him, and his response showed that he'd prefer Taub to work for him. But I also thought he showed more personal investment in Taub not talking to his wife and thereby perhaps destroying his relationship than I expected. He actually apologised to Taub when Taub demanded it and said nothing he'd said was applicable. That's going pretty far for House. And when he had that short exchange with Taub where he said Taub's name and Taub cut him off with "Haven't talked to her," he seemed to me to be risking getting shut down in front of his team--and again, I was a little surprised. I thought there was more personal investment from House than just reacting to the possibility that Taub might end up quitting. And given the similarity to his own adverse event, where he opened up to save his relationship and it didn't work, I think it was intended to be a little more personal. Also, on a different but related topic, I think there was nice continuity from the last episode when we learned that Wilson is going about his business, reaching out to all kinds of people, but will not talk about House at all to anyone. This episode, we saw House doing the same. I don't think in either case we're supposed to think they are actually moving on.

I think we've seen lots of little snapshots of House spreading other things than misery. With Rebecca Adler, Andie, JHG, the husband in Human Error, the astronaut My God, I wasn't talking about patients! I'm talking about people he has relationships with, outside the professional sphere. He made Stacy miserable, that's why she left him the first time, and he sent her away the second time because he believed he'd make her miserable again. He made Wilson miserable, that's why HE left. I'm willing to bet that the reason he and Cuddy haven't tried a romantic relationship is because they know he'd make her miserable too; in fact she told him that he makes everyone around him worse, which equals spreading misery. Word on not wanting a Greek chorus telling us what House is thinking and feeling all the time. I've never liked it when they did that.

jair wrote But I also thought House showed more personal investment in Taub not talking to his wife and thereby perhaps destroying his relationship than I expected. He actually apologised to Taub when Taub demanded it and said nothing he'd said was applicable. That's going pretty far for House. And when he had that short exchange with Taub where he said Taub's name and Taub cut him off with "Haven't talked to her," he seemed to me to be risking getting shut down in front of his team--and again, I was a little surprised. I'm thinking we are seeing House changing, ever so slightly. Born out of his personal unhappiness and recent events, but he actually realized that what he had begun with his poking at Taub could lead to a tragedy. Not that he'll necessarilty remember this once he feels better.

My God, I wasn't talking about patients! I'm talking about people he has relationships with, outside the professional sphere. I think Wilson was being a little more sweeping than that, but even in that case, the examples with Chase and Cameron fit. He supported them in his own fashion more than Wilson would have in similar circumstances, notwithstanding that he gets in their face and business on a regular basis. I also don't think Cuddy has any cut and dried position on House, and they've shown over the course of the show that they have a friendship with shadings of the possibility of more. She may or may not decide to ever take the romantic plunge again, but she considers House a friend, albeit one that requires constant watching. And Stacy's final position on House was that he was worth taking a chance on, not that he could only bring her misery. House doubted the relationship--she was ready to move back in with him.

OTOH, House's change of heart came as a direct result of Lucas reminding him that Taub left his last job rather than expose his wife to his affairs. He asks House whether he thinks Taub would work harder for House or not be working with him at all. I'm all for House internalizing his feelings, putting himself in others' shoes (quietly), but I don't think that was (all) that was happening here. So maybe I'm wrong (it's been known to happen). I'm sure that the scene can be read simply as House trying to keep Taub working hard for him, rather than quit, just as the scene of House looking out the window can be solely about looking at scenery. But for me, the scene read on multiple levels. And let's face it, House has consistently pushed pushed at his fellows to the point that they'd quit (and sometimes did). He's told 13 that she should quit if she can't handle reality, he's needled Chase, he's forced Cameron to take hard looks at reality, he pushed Foreman to the "I quit" stage. It's for more characteristic to push Taub to -- and past -- the breaking point, rather than backing off, just in case. And for me, it's not about House "putting himself in others' shoes," but rather forcing his shoes onto them. He's projecting his issues onto Taub, and therefore telling him to act in ways that he would have preferred Wilson had taken, not empathizing with him. Of course, that's how the scene read for me. Just as other people solely saw House looking out the window, other people took it as a sign that he was looking at Wilson's office. I'm just saying that the scene when House gave Taub advice was the one that most struck me as having distinct parallels between this episode and the overarching arc. But then maybe I'm just projecting myself and my own personal take on House and Wilson's relationship into a scene where it doesn't belong.

I agree the scene can be read on multiple levels. Maybe I need to watch it again (yeah, I know) to pick up what you're seeing. I also agree that it would be uncharacteristic for House to back off, but maybe he's trying to be uncharacteristic, and listening to Lucas, whose approach to House is less confrontational than Wilson's. I think House does both--he projects (and is projecting alot in this episode). But he does put himself into others' shoes -- especially when that person is an "other" like he is. Whether that's empathy or something else at play, I don't know. But he does relate on a visceral level to certain patients. maybe he's projecting then as well. But I don't think he's empathizing with Taub at all. Just trying to keep him "happy?" I definitely need to watch again.